# Scrolling is not intended for real time user requests - why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Elasticsearch\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647 "2014-05-21T16:09:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nikita\_Tovstoles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f17d59/32.png) [@Nikita\_Tovstoles](https://discuss.elastic.co/u/Nikita_Tovstoles)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647/1 "2014-05-21T16:09:01Z")
I am looking at scroll[http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll) to support a use case of paging through a list of products resulting from user checking off a number of product attribute filters in a typical ecommerce 'search & browse' scenario. Think someone wanting to page through a sub-set of diapers of specific brands[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr\_nr\_n\_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp\_89%3APampers|Diaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp_89%3APampers%7CDiaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011) . scroll seems like a natural fit there, performing well enough against our small dataset (master product list on the order of 100K products; user selections paring down the result set to \< 10K) but the docs say not to use it, seemingly: "Scrolling is not intended for real time user requests, it is intended for cases like scrolling over large portions of data that exists within elasticsearch to reindex it for example." Does the above warning presume much larger query result sets (and resulting memory allocation requirements on the ES server)? Or is there another reason? thanks, -nikita -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). ---
**Author:** ![andrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@andrew](https://discuss.elastic.co/u/andrew)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647/2 "2014-05-21T17:17:34Z")
Nikita, Pagination is usually implemented using a search request with the 'from' and 'size' parameters [1]. Technically you can do pagination with scroll, as you have seen. However, sooner or later you will want to get more sophisticated in your logic and that will inevitably include sorting and faceting/aggregating, which the scroll API does not support. Better to start off on a sound footing by using search. Andrew 1. [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-from-size.html) On May 21, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Nikita Tovstoles [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com) wrote: > I am looking at scroll to support a use case of paging through a list of products resulting from user checking off a number of product attribute filters in a typical ecommerce 'search & browse' scenario. Think someone wanting to page through a sub-set of diapers of specific brands. > > scroll seems like a natural fit there, performing well enough against our small dataset (master product list on the order of 100K products; user selections paring down the result set to \< 10K) but the docs say not to use it, seemingly: > > "Scrolling is not intended for real time user requests, it is intended for cases like scrolling over large portions of data that exists within elasticsearch to reindex it for example." > > Does the above warning presume much larger query result sets (and resulting memory allocation requirements on the ES server)? Or is there another reason? > > thanks, > > -nikita > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). ---
**Author:** ![Nikita\_Tovstoles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f17d59/32.png) [@Nikita\_Tovstoles](https://discuss.elastic.co/u/Nikita_Tovstoles)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647/3 "2014-05-21T17:32:34Z")
Valid point. However, there does appear to exist a (slight) perf penalty for retrieving 10,000th item vs. 1st for the same query (ie from=0 vs from=10000) - about 10x REST latency in my manual tests. I imagine no such penalty exists with scroll. If so the trade off between using scroll v. pagination appears to be latency vs flexibility. While you're probably right wrt pagination being the better approach in 90% of use cases, in some cases scroll (ex: infinite scroll) appears a better fit. So, aside from lack of flexibility and higher memory demands, are there other reasons not to use scroll in real time? On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Selden \< [andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com](mailto:andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com)\> wrote: > Nikita, > > Pagination is usually implemented using a search request with the ‘from’ > and ‘size’ parameters [1]. Technically you can do pagination with scroll, > as you have seen. However, sooner or later you will want to get more > sophisticated in your logic and that will inevitably include sorting and > faceting/aggregating, which the scroll API does not support. > > Better to start off on a sound footing by using search. > > Andrew > > 1. > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-from-size.html) > > On May 21, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Nikita Tovstoles [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com) > wrote: > > I am looking at scroll[http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll) to > support a use case of paging through a list of products resulting from user > checking off a number of product attribute filters in a typical ecommerce > 'search & browse' scenario. Think someone wanting to page through a sub-set > of diapers of specific brands[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr\_nr\_n\_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp\_89%3APampers|Diaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp_89%3APampers%7CDiaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011) > . > > scroll seems like a natural fit there, performing well enough against our > small dataset (master product list on the order of 100K products; user > selections paring down the result set to \< 10K) but the docs say not to use > it, seemingly: > > "Scrolling is not intended for real time user requests, it is intended for > cases like scrolling over large portions of data that exists within > elasticsearch to reindex it for example." > > Does the above warning presume much larger query result sets (and > resulting memory allocation requirements on the ES server)? Or is there > another reason? > > thanks, > > -nikita > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "elasticsearch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > To view this discussion on the web visit > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > . > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > [https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe](https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe). > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > To view this discussion on the web visit > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > . > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). ---
**Author:** ![jprante](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/elastic/user_avatar/discuss.elastic.co/jprante/32/44941_2.png) [@jprante](https://discuss.elastic.co/u/jprante)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647/4 "2014-05-21T18:57:25Z")
You described a browsing scenario to present products to users. Most users want to sort the products, for e.g. by price, brands, popularity, or actuality. With scan/scroll, you can not sort. Jörg On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Nikita Tovstoles \< [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > Valid point. However, there does appear to exist a (slight) perf penalty > for retrieving 10,000th item vs. 1st for the same query (ie from=0 vs > from=10000) - about 10x REST latency in my manual tests. > > I imagine no such penalty exists with scroll. If so the trade off between > using scroll v. pagination appears to be latency vs flexibility. While > you're probably right wrt pagination being the better approach in 90% of > use cases, in some cases scroll (ex: infinite scroll) appears a better fit. > > So, aside from lack of flexibility and higher memory demands, are there > other reasons not to use scroll in real time? > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Selden \< > [andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com](mailto:andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com)\> wrote: > > > Nikita, > > > > Pagination is usually implemented using a search request with the ‘from’ > > and ‘size’ parameters [1]. Technically you can do pagination with scroll, > > as you have seen. However, sooner or later you will want to get more > > sophisticated in your logic and that will inevitably include sorting and > > faceting/aggregating, which the scroll API does not support. > > > > Better to start off on a sound footing by using search. > > > > Andrew > > > > 1. > > > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-from-size.html) > > > > On May 21, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Nikita Tovstoles [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com) > > wrote: > > > > I am looking at scroll[http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll) to > > support a use case of paging through a list of products resulting from user > > checking off a number of product attribute filters in a typical ecommerce > > 'search & browse' scenario. Think someone wanting to page through a sub-set > > of diapers of specific brands[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr\_nr\_n\_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp\_89%3APampers|Diaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp_89%3APampers%7CDiaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011) > > . > > > > scroll seems like a natural fit there, performing well enough against our > > small dataset (master product list on the order of 100K products; user > > selections paring down the result set to \< 10K) but the docs say not to use > > it, seemingly: > > > > "Scrolling is not intended for real time user requests, it is intended > > for cases like scrolling over large portions of data that exists within > > elasticsearch to reindex it for example." > > > > Does the above warning presume much larger query result sets (and > > resulting memory allocation requirements on the ES server)? Or is there > > another reason? > > > > thanks, > > > > -nikita > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "elasticsearch" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > . > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > > Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > > [https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe](https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe). > > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > > [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > . > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "elasticsearch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > To view this discussion on the web visit > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > . > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. 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**Author:** ![Nikita\_Tovstoles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f17d59/32.png) [@Nikita\_Tovstoles](https://discuss.elastic.co/u/Nikita_Tovstoles)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647/5 "2014-05-21T19:03:51Z")
I was able to sort by property while using scroll On May 21, 2014 11:57 AM, "[joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com)" [joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com) wrote: > You described a browsing scenario to present products to users. Most users > want to sort the products, for e.g. by price, brands, popularity, or > actuality. With scan/scroll, you can not sort. > > Jörg > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > Valid point. However, there does appear to exist a (slight) perf penalty > > for retrieving 10,000th item vs. 1st for the same query (ie from=0 vs > > from=10000) - about 10x REST latency in my manual tests. > > > > I imagine no such penalty exists with scroll. If so the trade off between > > using scroll v. pagination appears to be latency vs flexibility. While > > you're probably right wrt pagination being the better approach in 90% of > > use cases, in some cases scroll (ex: infinite scroll) appears a better fit. > > > > So, aside from lack of flexibility and higher memory demands, are there > > other reasons not to use scroll in real time? > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Selden \< > > [andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com](mailto:andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com)\> wrote: > > > > > Nikita, > > > > > > Pagination is usually implemented using a search request with the ‘from’ > > > and ‘size’ parameters [1]. Technically you can do pagination with scroll, > > > as you have seen. However, sooner or later you will want to get more > > > sophisticated in your logic and that will inevitably include sorting and > > > faceting/aggregating, which the scroll API does not support. > > > > > > Better to start off on a sound footing by using search. > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-from-size.html) > > > > > > On May 21, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > > > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > I am looking at scroll[http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll) to > > > support a use case of paging through a list of products resulting from user > > > checking off a number of product attribute filters in a typical ecommerce > > > 'search & browse' scenario. Think someone wanting to page through a sub-set > > > of diapers of specific brands[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr\_nr\_n\_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp\_89%3APampers|Diaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp_89%3APampers%7CDiaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011) > > > . > > > > > > scroll seems like a natural fit there, performing well enough against > > > our small dataset (master product list on the order of 100K products; user > > > selections paring down the result set to \< 10K) but the docs say not to use > > > it, seemingly: > > > > > > "Scrolling is not intended for real time user requests, it is intended > > > for cases like scrolling over large portions of data that exists within > > > elasticsearch to reindex it for example." > > > > > > Does the above warning presume much larger query result sets (and > > > resulting memory allocation requirements on the ES server)? Or is there > > > another reason? > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > -nikita > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > > an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > > . > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > > > Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > > > [https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe](https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe). > > > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > > > [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > > . > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "elasticsearch" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > . > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > [https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe](https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe). > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > To view this discussion on the web visit > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAKdsXoEXE%3DhifqOW5a4JfLxJrsswGr4k4coJ7pa%2BoGZ9W753sQ%40mail.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAKdsXoEXE%3DhifqOW5a4JfLxJrsswGr4k4coJ7pa%2BoGZ9W753sQ%40mail.gmail.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAKdsXoEXE%3DhifqOW5a4JfLxJrsswGr4k4coJ7pa%2BoGZ9W753sQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAKdsXoEXE%3DhifqOW5a4JfLxJrsswGr4k4coJ7pa%2BoGZ9W753sQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > . > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. 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**Author:** ![jprante](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/elastic/user_avatar/discuss.elastic.co/jprante/32/44941_2.png) [@jprante](https://discuss.elastic.co/u/jprante)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647/6 "2014-05-21T20:04:36Z")
I wonder how you did that, the scan search type is defined by doing no sort and read directly from the shard segments. From the docs: "The costly part of deep pagination is the global sorting of results, but if we disable sorting then we can return all documents quite cheaply. To do this, we use the scan search type. Scan instructs Elasticsearch to do no sorting, but to just return the next batch of results from every shard which still has results to return." > **[Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale](https://www.elastic.co)** > > Power insights and outcomes with the Elasticsearch Platform and AI. See into your data and find answers that matter with enterprise solutions designed to help you build, observe, and protect. Try Elasticsearch free today. Jörg On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Nikita Tovstoles \< [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > I was able to sort by property while using scroll > On May 21, 2014 11:57 AM, "[joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com)" [joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com) > wrote: > > > You described a browsing scenario to present products to users. Most > > users want to sort the products, for e.g. by price, brands, popularity, or > > actuality. With scan/scroll, you can not sort. > > > > Jörg > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > > > Valid point. However, there does appear to exist a (slight) perf penalty > > > for retrieving 10,000th item vs. 1st for the same query (ie from=0 vs > > > from=10000) - about 10x REST latency in my manual tests. > > > > > > I imagine no such penalty exists with scroll. If so the trade off > > > between using scroll v. pagination appears to be latency vs flexibility. > > > While you're probably right wrt pagination being the better approach in 90% > > > of use cases, in some cases scroll (ex: infinite scroll) appears a better > > > fit. > > > > > > So, aside from lack of flexibility and higher memory demands, are there > > > other reasons not to use scroll in real time? > > > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Selden \< > > > [andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com](mailto:andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > > Nikita, > > > > > > > > Pagination is usually implemented using a search request with the > > > > ‘from’ and ‘size’ parameters [1]. Technically you can do pagination with > > > > scroll, as you have seen. However, sooner or later you will want to get > > > > more sophisticated in your logic and that will inevitably include sorting > > > > and faceting/aggregating, which the scroll API does not support. > > > > > > > > Better to start off on a sound footing by using search. > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-from-size.html) > > > > > > > > On May 21, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > > > > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > > > I am looking at scroll[http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll) to > > > > support a use case of paging through a list of products resulting from user > > > > checking off a number of product attribute filters in a typical ecommerce > > > > 'search & browse' scenario. Think someone wanting to page through a sub-set > > > > of diapers of specific brands[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr\_nr\_n\_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp\_89%3APampers|Diaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp_89%3APampers%7CDiaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011) > > > > . > > > > > > > > scroll seems like a natural fit there, performing well enough against > > > > our small dataset (master product list on the order of 100K products; user > > > > selections paring down the result set to \< 10K) but the docs say not to use > > > > it, seemingly: > > > > > > > > "Scrolling is not intended for real time user requests, it is intended > > > > for cases like scrolling over large portions of data that exists within > > > > elasticsearch to reindex it for example." > > > > > > > > Does the above warning presume much larger query result sets (and > > > > resulting memory allocation requirements on the ES server)? Or is there > > > > another reason? > > > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > > > -nikita > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > > > an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > > > . > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > > > > Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > > > > [https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe](https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe) > > > > . > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > > > > [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > > > . > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > > an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > > . > > > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > > Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > > [https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe](https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe). > > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > > [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAKdsXoEXE%3DhifqOW5a4JfLxJrsswGr4k4coJ7pa%2BoGZ9W753sQ%40mail.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAKdsXoEXE%3DhifqOW5a4JfLxJrsswGr4k4coJ7pa%2BoGZ9W753sQ%40mail.gmail.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAKdsXoEXE%3DhifqOW5a4JfLxJrsswGr4k4coJ7pa%2BoGZ9W753sQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAKdsXoEXE%3DhifqOW5a4JfLxJrsswGr4k4coJ7pa%2BoGZ9W753sQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > . > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "elasticsearch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > To view this discussion on the web visit > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA20WKTpcoXRHvNAQJ7F5mremX6pkM-bH7KnnV%3D\_BPwxwLA%40mail.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA20WKTpcoXRHvNAQJ7F5mremX6pkM-bH7KnnV%3D_BPwxwLA%40mail.gmail.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA20WKTpcoXRHvNAQJ7F5mremX6pkM-bH7KnnV%3D\_BPwxwLA%40mail.gmail.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA20WKTpcoXRHvNAQJ7F5mremX6pkM-bH7KnnV%3D_BPwxwLA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > . > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. 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**Author:** ![Nikita\_Tovstoles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f17d59/32.png) [@Nikita\_Tovstoles](https://discuss.elastic.co/u/Nikita_Tovstoles)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647/7 "2014-05-21T20:09:26Z")
I used scroll not scan with uri search > **[Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale](https://www.elastic.co)** > > Power insights and outcomes with the Elasticsearch Platform and AI. See into your data and find answers that matter with enterprise solutions designed to help you build, observe, and protect. Try Elasticsearch free today. On May 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "[joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com)" [joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com) wrote: > I wonder how you did that, the scan search type is defined by doing no > sort and read directly from the shard segments. From the docs: > > "The costly part of deep pagination is the global sorting of results, but > if we disable sorting then we can return all documents quite cheaply. To do > this, we use the scan search type. Scan instructs Elasticsearch to do no > sorting, but to just return the next batch of results from every shard > which still has results to return." > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/guide/current/scan-scroll.html) > > Jörg > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > I was able to sort by property while using scroll > > On May 21, 2014 11:57 AM, "[joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com)" [joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com) > > wrote: > > > > > You described a browsing scenario to present products to users. Most > > > users want to sort the products, for e.g. by price, brands, popularity, or > > > actuality. With scan/scroll, you can not sort. > > > > > > Jörg > > > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > > > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > > Valid point. However, there does appear to exist a (slight) perf > > > > penalty for retrieving 10,000th item vs. 1st for the same query (ie from=0 > > > > vs from=10000) - about 10x REST latency in my manual tests. > > > > > > > > I imagine no such penalty exists with scroll. If so the trade off > > > > between using scroll v. pagination appears to be latency vs flexibility. > > > > While you're probably right wrt pagination being the better approach in 90% > > > > of use cases, in some cases scroll (ex: infinite scroll) appears a better > > > > fit. > > > > > > > > So, aside from lack of flexibility and higher memory demands, are there > > > > other reasons not to use scroll in real time? > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Selden \< > > > > [andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com](mailto:andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Nikita, > > > > > > > > > > Pagination is usually implemented using a search request with the > > > > > ‘from’ and ‘size’ parameters [1]. Technically you can do pagination with > > > > > scroll, as you have seen. However, sooner or later you will want to get > > > > > more sophisticated in your logic and that will inevitably include sorting > > > > > and faceting/aggregating, which the scroll API does not support. > > > > > > > > > > Better to start off on a sound footing by using search. > > > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > > > > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-from-size.html) > > > > > > > > > > On May 21, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > > > > > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I am looking at scroll[http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll) to > > > > > support a use case of paging through a list of products resulting from user > > > > > checking off a number of product attribute filters in a typical ecommerce > > > > > 'search & browse' scenario. Think someone wanting to page through a sub-set > > > > > of diapers of specific brands[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr\_nr\_n\_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp\_89%3APampers|Diaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp_89%3APampers%7CDiaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011) > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > scroll seems like a natural fit there, performing well enough against > > > > > our small dataset (master product list on the order of 100K products; user > > > > > selections paring down the result set to \< 10K) but the docs say not to use > > > > > it, seemingly: > > > > > > > > > > "Scrolling is not intended for real time user requests, it is intended > > > > > for cases like scrolling over large portions of data that exists within > > > > > elasticsearch to reindex it for example." > > > > > > > > > > Does the above warning presume much larger query result sets (and > > > > > resulting memory allocation requirements on the ES server)? 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**Author:** ![jprante](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/elastic/user_avatar/discuss.elastic.co/jprante/32/44941_2.png) [@jprante](https://discuss.elastic.co/u/jprante)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647/8 "2014-05-21T20:19:04Z")
To initiate scroll search, the scan search type is used. It's in the docs. Also another disadvantage is in the docs: if you want to provide assistance to the users browsing for products, for example to break down a large product set into categories for filtering, you can not offer facets / aggregates in scan/scroll. Jörg On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:09 PM, Nikita Tovstoles \< [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > I used scroll not scan with uri search > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll) > On May 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "[joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com)" [joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com) > wrote: > > > I wonder how you did that, the scan search type is defined by doing no > > sort and read directly from the shard segments. From the docs: > > > > "The costly part of deep pagination is the global sorting of results, but > > if we disable sorting then we can return all documents quite cheaply. To do > > this, we use the scan search type. Scan instructs Elasticsearch to do no > > sorting, but to just return the next batch of results from every shard > > which still has results to return." > > > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/guide/current/scan-scroll.html) > > > > Jörg > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > > > I was able to sort by property while using scroll > > > On May 21, 2014 11:57 AM, "[joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com)" [joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com) > > > wrote: > > > > > > > You described a browsing scenario to present products to users. Most > > > > users want to sort the products, for e.g. by price, brands, popularity, or > > > > actuality. With scan/scroll, you can not sort. > > > > > > > > Jörg > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > > > > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Valid point. However, there does appear to exist a (slight) perf > > > > > penalty for retrieving 10,000th item vs. 1st for the same query (ie from=0 > > > > > vs from=10000) - about 10x REST latency in my manual tests. > > > > > > > > > > I imagine no such penalty exists with scroll. If so the trade off > > > > > between using scroll v. pagination appears to be latency vs flexibility. > > > > > While you're probably right wrt pagination being the better approach in 90% > > > > > of use cases, in some cases scroll (ex: infinite scroll) appears a better > > > > > fit. > > > > > > > > > > So, aside from lack of flexibility and higher memory demands, are > > > > > there other reasons not to use scroll in real time? > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Selden \< > > > > > [andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com](mailto:andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Nikita, > > > > > > > > > > > > Pagination is usually implemented using a search request with the > > > > > > ‘from’ and ‘size’ parameters [1]. Technically you can do pagination with > > > > > > scroll, as you have seen. However, sooner or later you will want to get > > > > > > more sophisticated in your logic and that will inevitably include sorting > > > > > > and faceting/aggregating, which the scroll API does not support. > > > > > > > > > > > > Better to start off on a sound footing by using search. > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-from-size.html) > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 21, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > > > > > > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I am looking at scroll[http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll) to > > > > > > support a use case of paging through a list of products resulting from user > > > > > > checking off a number of product attribute filters in a typical ecommerce > > > > > > 'search & browse' scenario. Think someone wanting to page through a sub-set > > > > > > of diapers of specific brands[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr\_nr\_n\_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp\_89%3APampers|Diaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp_89%3APampers%7CDiaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011) > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > scroll seems like a natural fit there, performing well enough against > > > > > > our small dataset (master product list on the order of 100K products; user > > > > > > selections paring down the result set to \< 10K) but the docs say not to use > > > > > > it, seemingly: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Scrolling is not intended for real time user requests, it is > > > > > > intended for cases like scrolling over large portions of data that exists > > > > > > within elasticsearch to reindex it for example." > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the above warning presume much larger query result sets (and > > > > > > resulting memory allocation requirements on the ES server)? Or is there > > > > > > another reason? > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > -nikita > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > > Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > > > > > > send an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > > > > > . > > > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in > > > > > > the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > > > > > > [https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe](https://groups.google.com/d/topic/elasticsearch/kuyLud4gPrk/unsubscribe) > > > > > > . > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > > > > > > [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > > > > > > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/3859CD3A-BD7C-47FF-A45C-1AFC816E86B4%40elasticsearch.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > > > > > . > > > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > > > > an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > > [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA21SSgMgn0ee6bo%3DDck5xzFmwnNvpi7YxS3FbkPjXDGK-g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > > > > > > > -- > > > > 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**Author:** ![andrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@andrew](https://discuss.elastic.co/u/andrew)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647/9 "2014-05-21T20:31:37Z")
Nikita, I failed to mention one of the reasons for preferring searching over scrolling. When scrolling, you effectively have something akin to a cursor over a Lucene segment during the life of the scroll. While this resource is in use, ES cannot allow that segment to be merged and reclaimed per the normal segment lifecycle. There is no such open resource in the search case. Andrew On May 21, 2014, at 1:09 PM, Nikita Tovstoles [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com) wrote: > I used scroll not scan with uri search > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll) > > On May 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "[joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com)" [joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com) wrote: > I wonder how you did that, the scan search type is defined by doing no sort and read directly from the shard segments. From the docs: > > "The costly part of deep pagination is the global sorting of results, but if we disable sorting then we can return all documents quite cheaply. To do this, we use the scan search type. Scan instructs Elasticsearch to do no sorting, but to just return the next batch of results from every shard which still has results to return." > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/guide/current/scan-scroll.html) > > Jörg > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Nikita Tovstoles [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com) wrote: > I was able to sort by property while using scroll > > On May 21, 2014 11:57 AM, "[joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com)" [joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com) wrote: > You described a browsing scenario to present products to users. Most users want to sort the products, for e.g. by price, brands, popularity, or actuality. With scan/scroll, you can not sort. > > Jörg > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Nikita Tovstoles [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com) wrote: > Valid point. However, there does appear to exist a (slight) perf penalty for retrieving 10,000th item vs. 1st for the same query (ie from=0 vs from=10000) - about 10x REST latency in my manual tests. > > I imagine no such penalty exists with scroll. If so the trade off between using scroll v. pagination appears to be latency vs flexibility. While you're probably right wrt pagination being the better approach in 90% of use cases, in some cases scroll (ex: infinite scroll) appears a better fit. > > So, aside from lack of flexibility and higher memory demands, are there other reasons not to use scroll in real time? > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Selden [andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com](mailto:andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com) wrote: > Nikita, > > Pagination is usually implemented using a search request with the 'from' and 'size' parameters [1]. Technically you can do pagination with scroll, as you have seen. However, sooner or later you will want to get more sophisticated in your logic and that will inevitably include sorting and faceting/aggregating, which the scroll API does not support. > > Better to start off on a sound footing by using search. > > Andrew > > 1. [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-from-size.html) > > On May 21, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Nikita Tovstoles [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com) wrote: > > > I am looking at scroll to support a use case of paging through a list of products resulting from user checking off a number of product attribute filters in a typical ecommerce 'search & browse' scenario. Think someone wanting to page through a sub-set of diapers of specific brands. > > > > scroll seems like a natural fit there, performing well enough against our small dataset (master product list on the order of 100K products; user selections paring down the result set to \< 10K) but the docs say not to use it, seemingly: > > > > "Scrolling is not intended for real time user requests, it is intended for cases like scrolling over large portions of data that exists within elasticsearch to reindex it for example." > > > > Does the above warning presume much larger query result sets (and resulting memory allocation requirements on the ES server)? Or is there another reason? > > > > thanks, > > > > -nikita > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/8ae9c470-a34a-46da-90fb-409fdfc08e71%40googlegroups.com). > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit 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**Author:** ![Nikita\_Tovstoles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f17d59/32.png) [@Nikita\_Tovstoles](https://discuss.elastic.co/u/Nikita_Tovstoles)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647/10 "2014-05-21T20:34:51Z")
That's helpful, thanks, Andrew On May 21, 2014 1:31 PM, "Andrew Selden" [andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com](mailto:andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com) wrote: > Nikita, > > I failed to mention one of the reasons for preferring searching over > scrolling. When scrolling, you effectively have something akin to a cursor > over a Lucene segment during the life of the scroll. While this resource is > in use, ES cannot allow that segment to be merged and reclaimed per the > normal segment lifecycle. There is no such open resource in the search case. > > Andrew > > On May 21, 2014, at 1:09 PM, Nikita Tovstoles [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com) > wrote: > > I used scroll not scan with uri search > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll) > On May 21, 2014 1:04 PM, "[joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com)" [joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com) > wrote: > > > I wonder how you did that, the scan search type is defined by doing no > > sort and read directly from the shard segments. From the docs: > > > > "The costly part of deep pagination is the global sorting of results, but > > if we disable sorting then we can return all documents quite cheaply. To do > > this, we use the scan search type. Scan instructs Elasticsearch to do no > > sorting, but to just return the next batch of results from every shard > > which still has results to return." > > > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/guide/current/scan-scroll.html) > > > > Jörg > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > > > I was able to sort by property while using scroll > > > On May 21, 2014 11:57 AM, "[joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com)" [joergprante@gmail.com](mailto:joergprante@gmail.com) > > > wrote: > > > > > > > You described a browsing scenario to present products to users. Most > > > > users want to sort the products, for e.g. by price, brands, popularity, or > > > > actuality. With scan/scroll, you can not sort. > > > > > > > > Jörg > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > > > > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Valid point. However, there does appear to exist a (slight) perf > > > > > penalty for retrieving 10,000th item vs. 1st for the same query (ie from=0 > > > > > vs from=10000) - about 10x REST latency in my manual tests. > > > > > > > > > > I imagine no such penalty exists with scroll. If so the trade off > > > > > between using scroll v. pagination appears to be latency vs flexibility. > > > > > While you're probably right wrt pagination being the better approach in 90% > > > > > of use cases, in some cases scroll (ex: infinite scroll) appears a better > > > > > fit. > > > > > > > > > > So, aside from lack of flexibility and higher memory demands, are > > > > > there other reasons not to use scroll in real time? > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Selden \< > > > > > [andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com](mailto:andrew.selden@elasticsearch.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Nikita, > > > > > > > > > > > > Pagination is usually implemented using a search request with the > > > > > > ‘from’ and ‘size’ parameters [1]. Technically you can do pagination with > > > > > > scroll, as you have seen. However, sooner or later you will want to get > > > > > > more sophisticated in your logic and that will inevitably include sorting > > > > > > and faceting/aggregating, which the scroll API does not support. > > > > > > > > > > > > Better to start off on a sound footing by using search. > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Elasticsearch Platform — Find real-time answers at scale | Elastic](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-from-size.html) > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 21, 2014, at 9:09 AM, Nikita Tovstoles \< > > > > > > [nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com](mailto:nikita.tovstoles@gmail.com)\> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I am looking at scroll[http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll](http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/search-request-scroll.html#search-request-scroll) to > > > > > > support a use case of paging through a list of products resulting from user > > > > > > checking off a number of product attribute filters in a typical ecommerce > > > > > > 'search & browse' scenario. Think someone wanting to page through a sub-set > > > > > > of diapers of specific brands[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr\_nr\_n\_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp\_89%3APampers|Diaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_1?rh=n%3A166764011%2Ck%3Adiapers%2Cp_89%3APampers%7CDiaper+Dude&keywords=diapers&ie=UTF8&qid=1400687984&rnid=2941120011) > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > scroll seems like a natural fit there, performing well enough against > > > > > > our small dataset (master product list on the order of 100K products; user > > > > > > selections paring down the result set to \< 10K) but the docs say not to use > > > > > > it, seemingly: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Scrolling is not intended for real time user requests, it is > > > > > > intended for cases like scrolling over large portions of data that exists > > > > > > within elasticsearch to reindex it for example." > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the above warning presume much larger query result sets (and > > > > > > resulting memory allocation requirements on the ES server)? Or is there > > > > > > another reason? > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > -nikita > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > > Groups "elasticsearch" group. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > > > > > > send an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > > > > > 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[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/30392DA5-7C12-466C-8A46-474ACC6147B8%40elasticsearch.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/30392DA5-7C12-466C-8A46-474ACC6147B8%40elasticsearch.com)[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/30392DA5-7C12-466C-8A46-474ACC6147B8%40elasticsearch.com?utm\_medium=email&utm\_source=footer](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/30392DA5-7C12-466C-8A46-474ACC6147B8%40elasticsearch.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer) > . > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:elasticsearch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). To view this discussion on the web visit [https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA23LxOAiM7RhwXWiU5eSaV%2Bmwt6\_VScEOS9KO1XDtVoVsA%40mail.gmail.com](https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/elasticsearch/CAJwaA23LxOAiM7RhwXWiU5eSaV%2Bmwt6_VScEOS9KO1XDtVoVsA%40mail.gmail.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). ---
**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/elastic/original/3X/1/a/1ac57faf039f6b580b3f104ef42a2a89e41014de.png) [@system](https://discuss.elastic.co/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://discuss.elastic.co/t/scrolling-is-not-intended-for-real-time-user-requests-why/17647/11 "2017-07-06T01:27:49Z")