Evaluating Moving to Discourse - Feedback Wanted


(Leslie Hawthorn) #1

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to have”
kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the fact
that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering
the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a
Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of
our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted
    discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual
    logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting peer
    support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing list

  • however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will continue
    to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though there are
    some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and
cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously
that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing
this information to set expectations about time frame for making the
switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective
migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer
time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get
your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and
be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on
it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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(Jack Park) #2

Leslie, this is a truly important conversation to have.

To anticipate my thoughts, I have been working on evolving open source
conversation platforms, using ElasticSearch. There are two aspects of my
work (others are doing similar work):

1- conversation is structured. In fact it is not simply an indented outline
conversation; each contribution (node) is akin to a tweet: a terse
statement or question about a single subject. Thus, trees grow along
subject lines. Each node is one of a question, a statement which can be an
answer to a question or an amplification on another answer, or a statement
which is a pro or con argument.

2- a topic map federates the topics in play, allows for relations among
those topics. The same apparatus allows for crosslinking nodes in
conversations simply because each conversation node is, in fact, its own
topic in the topic map, but each node is about a different specific
topic, say, "Yellow on startup". Thus, all that is knowable about "Yellow
on startup", every conversation node, the manual pages, blog pages,
whatever, is eventually captured by that specific node in the topic map
(document in ES). I recently gave a talk which speaks to my views on topic
maps in the context of using ElasticSearch in a much wider context [1].

To respond to your question, I think that Discourse is a pretty amazing
product. It might be that a topic map can be added to it to round out the
platform. A topic map helps to increase the SNR (signal to noise ratio) in
a sense similar to the way people jump to Wikipedia to do a quick check on
what something is about. But more than that, a topic map behaves like a
"geolocator" for all the topics in play in conversations.

It would seem that email interaction is one of those required capabilities.
Doing structured conversations in email has not yet been shown to be easy.
My observation has been that users of the ElasticSearch email list have
been very disciplined, staying on topic; that's nowhere near the case in
many other lists. But, does that translate to implementation as a
structured branching-tree conversation? Hard to say.

But, is email really required? I notice that some people come to the email
list first with a question about this or that exception; I've found it to
be extremely useful to paste the exception in the search bar on my browser
and get a great answer before coming to the list, though there have been
(and still are) some sticky exceptions for which answers just are not
available online.

Nevertheless, this is an important conversation to have, and not just for
the ElasticSearch community; it seems to me there is a huge demand to
improve the SNR for many online communities; I see ElasticSearch in that
solution space.

Cheers
Jack
[1] http://www.slideshare.net/jackpark/jst-talk-final

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 8:36 AM, leslie.hawthorn leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co
wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering
the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a
Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of
our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted
    discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual
    logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and
cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously
that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing
this information to set expectations about time frame for making the
switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective
migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer
time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get
your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and
be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on
it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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(Leslie Hawthorn) #3

Thank you for sharing your feedback and experience with Discourse, Jack.
From what I have seen, I agree that Discourse will allow our conversations
to be a bit more structured and we're putting a lot of thought into how to
structure the forum so that topic areas will be intuitive for our users to
find and explore.

Folks, all feedback on this proposal welcome, encouraged and needed. We
want to do what will work best for our community.

Cheers,
LH

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Jack Park jackpark@topicquests.org wrote:

Leslie, this is a truly important conversation to have.

To anticipate my thoughts, I have been working on evolving open source
conversation platforms, using ElasticSearch. There are two aspects of my
work (others are doing similar work):

1- conversation is structured. In fact it is not simply an indented
outline conversation; each contribution (node) is akin to a tweet: a terse
statement or question about a single subject. Thus, trees grow along
subject lines. Each node is one of a question, a statement which can be an
answer to a question or an amplification on another answer, or a statement
which is a pro or con argument.

2- a topic map federates the topics in play, allows for relations among
those topics. The same apparatus allows for crosslinking nodes in
conversations simply because each conversation node is, in fact, its own
topic in the topic map, but each node is about a different specific
topic, say, "Yellow on startup". Thus, all that is knowable about "Yellow
on startup", every conversation node, the manual pages, blog pages,
whatever, is eventually captured by that specific node in the topic map
(document in ES). I recently gave a talk which speaks to my views on topic
maps in the context of using ElasticSearch in a much wider context [1].

To respond to your question, I think that Discourse is a pretty amazing
product. It might be that a topic map can be added to it to round out the
platform. A topic map helps to increase the SNR (signal to noise ratio) in
a sense similar to the way people jump to Wikipedia to do a quick check on
what something is about. But more than that, a topic map behaves like a
"geolocator" for all the topics in play in conversations.

It would seem that email interaction is one of those required
capabilities. Doing structured conversations in email has not yet been
shown to be easy. My observation has been that users of the ElasticSearch
email list have been very disciplined, staying on topic; that's nowhere
near the case in many other lists. But, does that translate to
implementation as a structured branching-tree conversation? Hard to say.

But, is email really required? I notice that some people come to the
email list first with a question about this or that exception; I've found
it to be extremely useful to paste the exception in the search bar on my
browser and get a great answer before coming to the list, though there have
been (and still are) some sticky exceptions for which answers just are not
available online.

Nevertheless, this is an important conversation to have, and not just for
the ElasticSearch community; it seems to me there is a huge demand to
improve the SNR for many online communities; I see ElasticSearch in that
solution space.

Cheers
Jack
[1] http://www.slideshare.net/jackpark/jst-talk-final

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 8:36 AM, leslie.hawthorn <
leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co> wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of
our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted
    discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual
    logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and
cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get
your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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Twitter: @lhawthorn
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Voice: +31 20 794 7300

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(Glen Smith) #4

+1 for recognizing the challenge, proactively approaching it, clearly
articulating the issues, and proposing a seemingly beneficial solution.

Migrating off of gg would, IMO, be a good thing, for the reasons you
stated, plus numerous consequences of the "unsupported" state. e.g. nobody
is ever forever going
to invest anything in improving the user interface.

I confess to not having heard of discourse before. I like that it's GPL. Is
the plan to use a Discourse-hosted instance, or for Elastic to launch its
own?

In summary, +1.

Cheers.

On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 11:36:33 AM UTC-4, leslie.hawthorn wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering
the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a
Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org
http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of
our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted
    discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual
    logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and
cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously
that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing
this information to set expectations about time frame for making the
switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective
migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer
time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get
your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and
be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on
it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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(Jack Park) #5

+1 to Glen's reply.
I would build on Glen's comment "nobody is ever forever going to invest
anything in improving the user interface"
with this question (to the entire group):

What should a user interface for group collaboration be capable of
facilitating?

Cheers
Jack

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Glen Smith glen@smithsrock.com wrote:

+1 for recognizing the challenge, proactively approaching it, clearly
articulating the issues, and proposing a seemingly beneficial solution.

Migrating off of gg would, IMO, be a good thing, for the reasons you
stated, plus numerous consequences of the "unsupported" state. e.g. nobody
is ever forever going
to invest anything in improving the user interface.

I confess to not having heard of discourse before. I like that it's GPL.
Is the plan to use a Discourse-hosted instance, or for Elastic to launch
its own?

In summary, +1.

Cheers.

On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 11:36:33 AM UTC-4, leslie.hawthorn wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org
http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of
our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted
    discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual
    logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and
cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get
your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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(Leslie Hawthorn) #6

Thank you for your feedback, Glen! We're currently planning to use the
hosted platform.

Folks, please keep the feedback coming. We value your opinion.

Cheers,
LH

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Glen Smith glen@smithsrock.com wrote:

+1 for recognizing the challenge, proactively approaching it, clearly
articulating the issues, and proposing a seemingly beneficial solution.

Migrating off of gg would, IMO, be a good thing, for the reasons you
stated, plus numerous consequences of the "unsupported" state. e.g. nobody
is ever forever going
to invest anything in improving the user interface.

I confess to not having heard of discourse before. I like that it's GPL.
Is the plan to use a Discourse-hosted instance, or for Elastic to launch
its own?

In summary, +1.

Cheers.

On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 11:36:33 AM UTC-4, leslie.hawthorn wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org
http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of
our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted
    discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual
    logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and
cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get
your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


(Matt Weber) #7

+1 it looks really good. Would the mailing list mode be enabled so we can
still get everything in our inbox if desired?

Thanks,
Matt Weber

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Leslie Hawthorn <leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co

wrote:

Thank you for your feedback, Glen! We're currently planning to use the
hosted platform.

Folks, please keep the feedback coming. We value your opinion.

Cheers,
LH

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Glen Smith glen@smithsrock.com wrote:

+1 for recognizing the challenge, proactively approaching it, clearly
articulating the issues, and proposing a seemingly beneficial solution.

Migrating off of gg would, IMO, be a good thing, for the reasons you
stated, plus numerous consequences of the "unsupported" state. e.g. nobody
is ever forever going
to invest anything in improving the user interface.

I confess to not having heard of discourse before. I like that it's GPL.
Is the plan to use a Discourse-hosted instance, or for Elastic to launch
its own?

In summary, +1.

Cheers.

On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 11:36:33 AM UTC-4, leslie.hawthorn wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org
http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all
of our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted
    discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual
    logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and
cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and
get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


(Tyler Langlois) #8

Matt,

I'm on the infrastructure team at Elastic - I've been putting Discourse
through the wringer in terms of features, and we've confirmed that if you
want to rely primarily on email, you'll be able to do so. Users on
Discourse can freely choose which categories to be involved with, so if you
log in to Discourse, subscribe to new topics on, say, elasticsearch and
logstash, you can receive new topics via email and reply to them via email
as well.

In this regard, the hope is that the move to Discourse will enable you to
tune your preferences to keep interacting the same way you've always done
(whether email or browser) while subscribing with finer preferences across
projects that may be relevant to one another.

Cheers!
Tyler

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 3:06:55 PM UTC-6, Matt Weber wrote:

+1 it looks really good. Would the mailing list mode be enabled so we can
still get everything in our inbox if desired?

Thanks,
Matt Weber

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Leslie Hawthorn <leslie....@elastic.co
<javascript:>> wrote:

Thank you for your feedback, Glen! We're currently planning to use the
hosted platform.

Folks, please keep the feedback coming. We value your opinion.

Cheers,
LH

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Glen Smith <gl...@smithsrock.com
<javascript:>> wrote:

+1 for recognizing the challenge, proactively approaching it, clearly
articulating the issues, and proposing a seemingly beneficial solution.

Migrating off of gg would, IMO, be a good thing, for the reasons you
stated, plus numerous consequences of the "unsupported" state. e.g. nobody
is ever forever going
to invest anything in improving the user interface.

I confess to not having heard of discourse before. I like that it's GPL.
Is the plan to use a Discourse-hosted instance, or for Elastic to launch
its own?

In summary, +1.

Cheers.

On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 11:36:33 AM UTC-4, leslie.hawthorn wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org
http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all
of our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better
    targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client,
    individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings,
    etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives,
and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and
get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

--
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(Matt Weber) #9

Thanks Tyler! This sounds perfect for how I use the mailing list. I
quickly scan through the list in my inbox and reply directly for short
responses. If I need to write up something more detailed then I jump on
the website to do so.

Thanks,
Matt Weber

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 3:33 PM, tyler@elastic.co wrote:

Matt,

I'm on the infrastructure team at Elastic - I've been putting Discourse
through the wringer in terms of features, and we've confirmed that if you
want to rely primarily on email, you'll be able to do so. Users on
Discourse can freely choose which categories to be involved with, so if you
log in to Discourse, subscribe to new topics on, say, elasticsearch and
logstash, you can receive new topics via email and reply to them via email
as well.

In this regard, the hope is that the move to Discourse will enable you to
tune your preferences to keep interacting the same way you've always done
(whether email or browser) while subscribing with finer preferences across
projects that may be relevant to one another.

Cheers!
Tyler

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 3:06:55 PM UTC-6, Matt Weber wrote:

+1 it looks really good. Would the mailing list mode be enabled so we
can still get everything in our inbox if desired?

Thanks,
Matt Weber

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Leslie Hawthorn leslie....@elastic.co
wrote:

Thank you for your feedback, Glen! We're currently planning to use the
hosted platform.

Folks, please keep the feedback coming. We value your opinion.

Cheers,
LH

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Glen Smith gl...@smithsrock.com wrote:

+1 for recognizing the challenge, proactively approaching it, clearly
articulating the issues, and proposing a seemingly beneficial solution.

Migrating off of gg would, IMO, be a good thing, for the reasons you
stated, plus numerous consequences of the "unsupported" state. e.g. nobody
is ever forever going
to invest anything in improving the user interface.

I confess to not having heard of discourse before. I like that it's
GPL. Is the plan to use a Discourse-hosted instance, or for Elastic to
launch its own?

In summary, +1.

Cheers.

On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 11:36:33 AM UTC-4, leslie.hawthorn wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org
http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discourse.org&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFQi_hMkuJsZ9_yWmYpibYIPzwS7w

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all
of our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better
    targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client,
    individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings,
    etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list
    now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development
    to production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives,
and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and
get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback.
We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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(Magnus Bäck) #10

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 00:33 CEST, tyler@elastic.co wrote:

I'm on the infrastructure team at Elastic - I've been putting
Discourse through the wringer in terms of features, and we've
confirmed that if you want to rely primarily on email, you'll
be able to do so. Users on Discourse can freely choose which
categories to be involved with, so if you log in to Discourse,
subscribe to new topics on, say, elasticsearch and logstash,
you can receive new topics via email and reply to them via
email as well.

Email notifications for new topics is something I've taken for
granted, but what about updates of existing topics? I'm obviously
not only interested in new questions but also responses to old
ones (without me having to explicitly subscribe to each thread).
Judging by https://meta.discourse.org/t/email-notifications/1520
this shouldn't be a problem but that thread is more than a year
old.

In this regard, the hope is that the move to Discourse will enable
you to tune your preferences to keep interacting the same way you've
always done (whether email or browser) while subscribing with finer
preferences across projects that may be relevant to one another.

That's what I hope too. Having to do any kind of periodic polling
to keep up would be a drastic step backwards to the pre-Usenet
days, circa 1979.

--
Magnus Bäck | Software Engineer, Development Tools
magnus.back@sonymobile.com | Sony Mobile Communications

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(Tyler Langlois) #11

Point definitely understood. The functionality you're describing is fully
supported in Discourse - once you've told Discourse which categories you
want to be included on (whether at the new topic level or post-by-post),
you'll be able to interact completely by email if that's your preferred
method (including seeing all new posts, replying over email, and creating
new topics via email.)

We definitely don't want to backwards in terms of functionality for
everyone, so we're working to make sure those features work as expected. :slight_smile:

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 12:31:14 AM UTC-6, Magnus Bäck wrote:

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 00:33 CEST, ty...@elastic.co <javascript:>
wrote:

I'm on the infrastructure team at Elastic - I've been putting
Discourse through the wringer in terms of features, and we've
confirmed that if you want to rely primarily on email, you'll
be able to do so. Users on Discourse can freely choose which
categories to be involved with, so if you log in to Discourse,
subscribe to new topics on, say, elasticsearch and logstash,
you can receive new topics via email and reply to them via
email as well.

Email notifications for new topics is something I've taken for
granted, but what about updates of existing topics? I'm obviously
not only interested in new questions but also responses to old
ones (without me having to explicitly subscribe to each thread).
Judging by https://meta.discourse.org/t/email-notifications/1520
this shouldn't be a problem but that thread is more than a year
old.

In this regard, the hope is that the move to Discourse will enable
you to tune your preferences to keep interacting the same way you've
always done (whether email or browser) while subscribing with finer
preferences across projects that may be relevant to one another.

That's what I hope too. Having to do any kind of periodic polling
to keep up would be a drastic step backwards to the pre-Usenet
days, circa 1979.

--
Magnus Bäck | Software Engineer, Development Tools
magnu...@sonymobile.com <javascript:> | Sony Mobile Communications

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(Ivan Brusic) #12

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of the
mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it. It
works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the mailing
list since everything is archived.

Ivan
On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co
wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering shuttering
the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor of a
Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of
our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted
    discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual
    logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and
cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but obviously
that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re sharing
this information to set expectations about time frame for making the
switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure effective
migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a longer
time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get
your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback and
be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based on
it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn

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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


(Leslie Hawthorn) #13

Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would
always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic ivan@brusic.com wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of the
mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it. It
works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the
mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan
On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co
wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all of
our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted
    discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual
    logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and
cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and get
your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "elasticsearch" group.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


(Ivan Brusic) #14

I should clarify that I have no issues moving to Discourse, as long as
instantaneous email interaction is preserved, just wanted to point out that
I see no issues with the mailing lists.

The question is moot anyways since the change will happen regardless of our
inputs.

I hope we can subscribe to Discourse mailing lists without needing an
account.

Cheers,

Ivan
On Apr 13, 2015 7:13 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co
wrote:

Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would
always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic ivan@brusic.com wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of
the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it.
It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the
mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan
On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co
wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all
of our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted
    discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual
    logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and
cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and
get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

--
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


(Leslie Hawthorn) #15

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ivan Brusic ivan@brusic.com wrote:

I should clarify that I have no issues moving to Discourse, as long as
instantaneous email interaction is preserved, just wanted to point out that
I see no issues with the mailing lists.

Understood.

The question is moot anyways since the change will happen regardless of
our inputs.

Actually, I'm maintaining our Forums pre-launch checklist where there's a
line item for "don't move forward based on community feedback". I
respectfully disagree with your assessment that the change will happen
regardless of input from the community. We asked for feedback for a reason.
:slight_smile:

I hope we can subscribe to Discourse mailing lists without needing an
account.

You'll need an account, but it's a one-time login to set up your
preferences and then read/interact solely via email.

Cheers,
LH

Cheers,

Ivan
On Apr 13, 2015 7:13 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co
wrote:

Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would
always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic ivan@brusic.com wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of
the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it.
It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the
mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan
On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co
wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all
of our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better
    targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client,
    individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings,
    etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives,
and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and
get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

--
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.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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http://elastic.co

Other Places to Find Me:
Freenode: lh
Twitter: @lhawthorn
Skype: mebelh
Voice: +31 20 794 7300

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(Itamar Syn-Hershko) #16

I believe the biggest impact would be on responsiveness

As another long-timer, and someone who often responds to questions, I will
probably cease to do that if the forum would move to Discourse simply
because it lacks the "push" style notifications on new questions. Right now
if a question title in my inbox catches my eye I'll quickly read it and
respond. I'm quite sure this pattern (which I'm sure I'm not the only one
relying on) will go away once you move to Discourse and the forum
responsiveness with it.

Just my 2 cents.

--

Itamar Syn-Hershko
http://code972.com | @synhershko https://twitter.com/synhershko
Freelance Developer & Consultant
Lucene.NET committer and PMC member

On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Leslie Hawthorn <leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co

wrote:

Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would
always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic ivan@brusic.com wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of
the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it.
It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the
mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan
On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co
wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all
of our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better targeted
    discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client, individual
    logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings, etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives, and
cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and
get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

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(Glen Smith) #17
  • it lacks the "push" style notifications on new questions*

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-enGiohVrmdk/VS6lNPnQMbI/AAAAAAAAA70/fc-SzjQxRlk/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-04-15%2Bat%2B1.49.18%2BPM.png
That doesn't seem to be correct to me. Does "send me an email for every new
post" not cover what you want?

On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 1:42:50 PM UTC-4, Itamar Syn-Hershko wrote:

I believe the biggest impact would be on responsiveness

As another long-timer, and someone who often responds to questions, I will
probably cease to do that if the forum would move to Discourse simply
because it lacks the "push" style notifications on new questions. Right now
if a question title in my inbox catches my eye I'll quickly read it and
respond. I'm quite sure this pattern (which I'm sure I'm not the only one
relying on) will go away once you move to Discourse and the forum
responsiveness with it.

Just my 2 cents.

--

Itamar Syn-Hershko
http://code972.com | @synhershko https://twitter.com/synhershko
Freelance Developer & Consultant
Lucene.NET committer and PMC member

On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Leslie Hawthorn <leslie....@elastic.co
<javascript:>> wrote:

Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would
always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic <iv...@brusic.com
<javascript:>> wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of
the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it.
It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the
mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan
On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" <leslie....@elastic.co
<javascript:>> wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all
of our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better
    targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client,
    individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings,
    etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list now,
    such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development to
    production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives,
and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and
get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback. We
don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

--
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"elasticsearch" group.
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(Itamar Syn-Hershko) #18

Fair play, will check that out, assuming you can reply to that email to
respond?

--

Itamar Syn-Hershko
http://code972.com | @synhershko https://twitter.com/synhershko
Freelance Developer & Consultant
Lucene.NET committer and PMC member

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 8:53 PM, Glen Smith glen@smithsrock.com wrote:

  • it lacks the "push" style notifications on new questions*

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-enGiohVrmdk/VS6lNPnQMbI/AAAAAAAAA70/fc-SzjQxRlk/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-04-15%2Bat%2B1.49.18%2BPM.png
That doesn't seem to be correct to me. Does "send me an email for every
new post" not cover what you want?

On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 1:42:50 PM UTC-4, Itamar Syn-Hershko wrote:

I believe the biggest impact would be on responsiveness

As another long-timer, and someone who often responds to questions, I
will probably cease to do that if the forum would move to Discourse simply
because it lacks the "push" style notifications on new questions. Right now
if a question title in my inbox catches my eye I'll quickly read it and
respond. I'm quite sure this pattern (which I'm sure I'm not the only one
relying on) will go away once you move to Discourse and the forum
responsiveness with it.

Just my 2 cents.

--

Itamar Syn-Hershko
http://code972.com | @synhershko https://twitter.com/synhershko
Freelance Developer & Consultant
Lucene.NET committer and PMC member

On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Leslie Hawthorn leslie....@elastic.co
wrote:

Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would
always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic iv...@brusic.com wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of
the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it.
It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the
mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan
On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" leslie....@elastic.co
wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all
of our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better
    targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client,
    individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings,
    etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list
    now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development
    to production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives,
and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and
get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback.
We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

--
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(Jörg Prante) #19

I know I can not influence the decision for Discourse, so here are just my
2 ¢.

The move should also consider that users who register with the new forum
should have the right to export their own contributions to download them
similar to Google takeaway function for Gmail / G+ account.

Also, it would be a an advance to add a license note, compatible to the
Open Data Commons License http://opendatacommons.org/licenses/ to the user
contributions. This would ensure long term archiving / harvesting /
text-and-data-mining rights by the community. No one knows which system
comes after Discourse.

If such licensing terms could be applied, I would find a file dump service
very useful. Discourse allows a Postgresql dump of a forum, and I would
appreciate regular data dumps that are made available to the public. Maybe
to the Internet Archive, like https://archive.org/details/stackexchange

I support all suggestions which prefer forum access by email. I use emails
since 1989 and I can not make friends with systems that remind me of toys
and eyecandy like Google Wave http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Wave and
offer "likes" like Facebook. I don't need that crap.

Best,

Jörg

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:20 PM, Leslie Hawthorn <leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co

wrote:

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ivan Brusic ivan@brusic.com wrote:

I should clarify that I have no issues moving to Discourse, as long as
instantaneous email interaction is preserved, just wanted to point out that
I see no issues with the mailing lists.

Understood.

The question is moot anyways since the change will happen regardless of
our inputs.

Actually, I'm maintaining our Forums pre-launch checklist where there's a
line item for "don't move forward based on community feedback". I
respectfully disagree with your assessment that the change will happen
regardless of input from the community. We asked for feedback for a reason.
:slight_smile:

I hope we can subscribe to Discourse mailing lists without needing an
account.

You'll need an account, but it's a one-time login to set up your
preferences and then read/interact solely via email.

Cheers,
LH

Cheers,

Ivan
On Apr 13, 2015 7:13 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co
wrote:

Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would
always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic ivan@brusic.com wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of
the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it.
It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the
mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan
On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" leslie.hawthorn@elastic.co
wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as the
fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no API
hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for all
of our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better
    targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client,
    individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings,
    etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list
    now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development
    to production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to getting
    peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a mailing
list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and will
continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives,
and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and
get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback.
We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming feedback
and be completely transparent about how our thought processes evolve based
on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

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Other Places to Find Me:
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Voice: +31 20 794 7300

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(Tyler Langlois) #20

Itamar:

Correct - replying to topics via email is supported. We're trying very hard
to ensure that people who rely primarily on email aren't left out, so we've
double checked to ensure that if you want to interact primarily through
email, you'll definitely be able to (receiving all new posts via email,
replying to those via email, et cetera.)

Jörg:

Some of those reasons you've mentioned are motivating factors for the move
to an open-source platform like Discourse. Some features like the ability
to download your own posts are already built-in, such as the feature shown
below:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fNtYF8_sGlw/VS6sD7p2SVI/AAAAAAAAACw/uaHykWji6RM/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-04-15%2Bat%2B12.11.29%2BPM.png

In addition, unlike google groups, Discourse has a very comprehensive API
that anyone would be able to leverage to export data however they would
like. And again, if email is the preferred method, you could always
subscribe to everything and just rely on email archives as well.

On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 12:08:21 PM UTC-6, Jörg Prante wrote:

I know I can not influence the decision for Discourse, so here are just my
2 ¢.

The move should also consider that users who register with the new forum
should have the right to export their own contributions to download them
similar to Google takeaway function for Gmail / G+ account.

Also, it would be a an advance to add a license note, compatible to the
Open Data Commons License http://opendatacommons.org/licenses/ to the
user contributions. This would ensure long term archiving / harvesting /
text-and-data-mining rights by the community. No one knows which system
comes after Discourse.

If such licensing terms could be applied, I would find a file dump service
very useful. Discourse allows a Postgresql dump of a forum, and I would
appreciate regular data dumps that are made available to the public. Maybe
to the Internet Archive, like https://archive.org/details/stackexchange

I support all suggestions which prefer forum access by email. I use emails
since 1989 and I can not make friends with systems that remind me of toys
and eyecandy like Google Wave http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Wave
and offer "likes" like Facebook. I don't need that crap.

Best,

Jörg

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 7:20 PM, Leslie Hawthorn <leslie....@elastic.co
<javascript:>> wrote:

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ivan Brusic <iv...@brusic.com
<javascript:>> wrote:

I should clarify that I have no issues moving to Discourse, as long as
instantaneous email interaction is preserved, just wanted to point out that
I see no issues with the mailing lists.

Understood.

The question is moot anyways since the change will happen regardless of
our inputs.

Actually, I'm maintaining our Forums pre-launch checklist where there's a
line item for "don't move forward based on community feedback". I
respectfully disagree with your assessment that the change will happen
regardless of input from the community. We asked for feedback for a reason.
:slight_smile:

I hope we can subscribe to Discourse mailing lists without needing an
account.

You'll need an account, but it's a one-time login to set up your
preferences and then read/interact solely via email.

Cheers,
LH

Cheers,

Ivan
On Apr 13, 2015 7:13 PM, "Leslie Hawthorn" <leslie....@elastic.co
<javascript:>> wrote:

Thanks for your feedback, Ivan.

There's no plan to remove threads from the forums, so information would
always be archived there as well.

Does that impact your thoughts on moving to Discourse?

Folks, please keep the feedback coming!

Cheers,
LH

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ivan Brusic <iv...@brusic.com
<javascript:>> wrote:

As one of the oldest and most frequent users (before my sabbatical) of
the mailing list, I just wanted to say that I never had an issue with it.
It works. As long as I could continue using only email, I am happy.

For realtime communication, there is the IRC channel. If prefer the
mailing list since everything is archived.

Ivan
On Apr 2, 2015 5:36 PM, "leslie.hawthorn" <leslie....@elastic.co
<javascript:>> wrote:

Hello everyone,

As we’ve begun to scale up development on three different open source
projects, we’ve found Google Groups to be a difficult solution for dealing
with all of our needs for community support. We’ve got multiple mailing
lists going, which can be confusing for new folks trying to figure out
where to go to ask a question.

We’ve also found our lists are becoming noisy in the “good problem to
have” kind of way. As we’ve seen more user adoption, and across such a wide
variety of use cases, we’re getting widely different types of questions
asked. For example, I can imagine that folks not using our Python client
would rather not be distracted with emails about it.

There’s also a few other strikes against Groups as a tool, such as
the fact that it is no longer a supported product by Google, it provides no
API hooks and it is not available for users in China.

We’ve evaluated several options and we’re currently considering
shuttering the elasticsearch-user and logstash-users Google Groups in favor
of a Discourse forum. You can read more about Discourse at
http://www.discourse.org

We feel Discourse will allow us to provide a better experience for
all of our users for a few reasons:

  • More fine grained conversation topics = less noise and better
    targeted discussions. e.g. we can offer a forum for each language client,
    individual logstash plugin or for each city to plan user group meetings,
    etc.

  • Facilitates discussions that are not generally happening on list
    now, such as best practices by use case or tips from moving to development
    to production

  • Easier for folks who are purely end users - and less used to
    getting peer support on a mailing list - to get help when they need it

Obviously, Discourse does not function the exact same way as a
mailing list - however, email interaction with Discourse is supported and
will continue to allow you to participate in discussions over email (though
there are some small issues related to in-line replies. [0])

We’re working with the Discourse team now as part of evaluating this
transition, and we know they’re working to resolve this particular issue.
We’re also still determining how Discourse will handle our needs for both
user and list archive migration, and we’ll know the precise details of how
that would work soon. (We’ll share when we have them.)

The final goal would be to move Google Groups to read-only archives,
and cut over to Discourse completely for community support discussions.

We’re looking at making the cut over in ~30 days from today, but
obviously that’s subject to the feedback we receive from all of you. We’re
sharing this information to set expectations about time frame for making
the switch. It’s not set in stone. Our highest priority is to ensure
effective migration of our list archives and subscribers, which may mean a
longer time horizon for deploying Discourse, as well.

In the meantime, though, we wanted to communicate early and often and
get your feedback. Would this change make your life better? Worse? Meh?

Please share your thoughts with us so we can evaluate your feedback.
We don’t take this switch lightly, and we want to understand how it will
impact your overall workflow and experience.

We’ll make regular updates to the list responding to incoming
feedback and be completely transparent about how our thought processes
evolve based on it.

Thanks in advance!

[0] - https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-from-google-groups/24695

Cheers,
LH

Leslie Hawthorn
Director of Developer Relations
http://elastic.co

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